C3's question thread

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Re: C3's question thread

Postby warhol » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:14 pm

Please name ten tracks where all the parts are isolated in their mix.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby raynebc » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:28 pm

rambomhtri wrote:but if I can listen to isolated tracks of each instrument through the game's practice mode, and that does not invade their property and integrity of their artists music, then playing an OGG guitar track through my PC and listen to it neither does that. So, yeah, it's unjustified and illogical, sorry, it's not because I don't like it.

You are mistaken. The label licensed the use of the stems in-game, in a platform where copy protections are designed to prevent people from doing whatever they want with the audio. You can't equate playing the audio in-game as allowed with defeating encryption and putting the audio on an unauthorized platform for your own use.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby m1999 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:55 am

rambomhtri wrote:And the argument "them musicians can steal easier samples" is quite pointless, cause you can steal samples from any single band out there even using only mixes, cause as you know, many, many mixes have isolated parts, solo parts, that can be used exactly the same as master tracks.

By that logic, why do you want the stems in the first place then? There's isolated guitar in that song for 3 seconds, that should be enough right?
While there are sometimes isolated parts in songs, those parts are usually not quite the parts anyone would want to steal.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:55 am

warhol wrote:Please name ten tracks where all the parts are isolated in their mix.

What? That's not what I said, and that's not even the point. Please, users, all the forum users. If you're gonna reply to me, read carefully what I typed.

Do I really have to show you some tracks with isolated parts? Are you kidding me?

Every single band has drum intro solos, guitar solos with no other instrument playing, guitar riffs or licks without any other instrument playing in the background, plenty of parts of vocals isolated, choruses. My point is that if you wanna steal samples or licks and even use the original ones, you just got to point randomly at one band and listen to 1 album. You'll find plenty of material isolated (instrument that play a part for a long time with no other instrument playing in the background). A drum solo intro, you loop it and boom, stolen.

So it's absurd and pointless to use that argument, and in this case, that we are talking about internet users, I bet my $3000 electric guitar that 99.99% of the people looking for multitracks are not musicians thinking about stealing parts of master tracks and being famous using other famous band's riffs, licks, and master tracks in general, without anyone else's noticing nothing familiar.

If you still can't manage to listen to it, name one band and I'll show you plenty of material you could steal the same way you could steal a master track.


You are mistaken. The label licensed the use of the stems in-game, in a platform where copy protections are designed to prevent people from doing whatever they want with the audio. You can't equate playing the audio in-game as allowed with defeating encryption and putting the audio on an unauthorized platform for your own use.

Yeah, I understand that, but you're talking about general use, which includes of course sharing and stuff. BUT I'm only talking about what I do, which is, listen to it for the sake's of listening to it.

In the other hand, I can't manage to think about anything a user can do with multitracks that is really harmful for any label, artist, company, music industry or whatever. If you share it, OK, I know that can be something that C3 don't want to be happening, but anyways, what's the harmful about that? Nobody loses money, so if money is not involved, I can't think about any reason that can be harmful.

By that logic, why do you want the stems in the first place then? There's isolated guitar in that song for 3 seconds, that should be enough right?
While there are sometimes isolated parts in songs, those parts are usually not quite the parts anyone would want to steal.

That's the dumbest point I've read so far in this thread. Don't troll, please. What I want to do is listen to isolated instruments so I can hear way, way, way better all the little details. Specially when all the instruments are playing. I really think you're not being serious.

About the second sentence, man, what the heck, millions of drums solos, millions of isolated guitar licks and riffs, millions of chorus with only vocals playing back. That's not what I would want to steal? Lol.
Well, first, the dumb piece of sh*t that dares to steal some music from another band and claim it's his can't be a good musician at the first place (indeed, I would never consider him a serious musician, I would even almost consider him not a musician at all), so don't expect him to want an awesome solo with great stuff perfectly isolated and ready to be copied and pasted. He just would take a 4-5 seconds of a simple sample and loop it over and over again. Same with drums. So yeah, if that kind of """"""musician"""""" (useless human being fits better) wants to steal something, he will take whatever you put in front of his nose.
We're talking a lot about stealing and stuff, but this is absurd. No body cares about stealing, not a single band that is famous has stolen the master tracks to create the perfect hit and go directly to the top.

This is the kind of sh*t musicians that steal do:

1. "Rick James - Super Freak" (1981, original) stolen by "MC Hammer - U Can't Touch This" (stolen, 1990)
Wow, 4 seconds of the intro riff, looped and looped and looped over and over and over again 'till the Earth explodes. And yeah, you can also steal more than one instrument, for example an intro of keys (piano) and guitar.

2. "Queen - Under Pressure" (1981, original) stolen by "Vanilla Ice - Ice Ice Baby" (stolen, 1990)
Surprise, 4 seconds of the intro looped 'till we all die.

I don't know if there were legal issues when those stolen riffs where out in 1990, I think MC Hammer credited Rick James, but Vanilla Ice didn't at the first place, but when it became a hit, it did credit Queen. So these kind of songs are what you steal, 4 seconds looped over and over again, and you don't even need to look for isolated parts, they steal whole riffs with 2 or more instruments.

Anyway, this is not usual. Actually, the real deal comes when one band records some riffs that are identical to this band from 6 years ago. That's where the real deal is, cause stealing mastertracks and use them in your own albums is so dumb that even the dumbest musician knows he can't do that.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby m1999 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:13 pm

By that logic, why do you want the stems in the first place then? There's isolated guitar in that song for 3 seconds, that should be enough right?

That's the dumbest point I've read so far in this thread. Don't troll, please. What I want to do is listen to isolated instruments so I can hear way, way, way better all the little details. Specially when all the instruments are playing. I really think you're not being serious.

It was meant in a sarcastic way, but looking back at it, it doesn't make much sense. I shouldn't post while I'm being dead tired :rolleyes:
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:34 pm

m1999 wrote:
By that logic, why do you want the stems in the first place then? There's isolated guitar in that song for 3 seconds, that should be enough right?

That's the dumbest point I've read so far in this thread. Don't troll, please. What I want to do is listen to isolated instruments so I can hear way, way, way better all the little details. Specially when all the instruments are playing. I really think you're not being serious.

It was meant in a sarcastic way, but looking back at it, it doesn't make much sense. I shouldn't post while I'm being dead tired :rolleyes:

Lol, it's OK, it does not matter at all. :thumbup:
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:55 pm

rambomhtri wrote:Hi, I'm not here to refuse every single point you make. I accept some of them, but I don't understand why listening to these multi tracks from a PC is wrong and really bad, but listening to them in practice mode in the Guitar Hero game is alright. Still not found a single reason for that, and I guess I won't find any reason. Because that's how I use them, and two C3 members have told me that's wrong, that I can't do that, that I'm not supposed to open them from my PC and listen to them.


Where did anyone say that it's wrong and really bad for you to listen to multitracks?
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:58 pm

farottone wrote:
rambomhtri wrote:Hi, I'm not here to refuse every single point you make. I accept some of them, but I don't understand why listening to these multi tracks from a PC is wrong and really bad, but listening to them in practice mode in the Guitar Hero game is alright. Still not found a single reason for that, and I guess I won't find any reason. Because that's how I use them, and two C3 members have told me that's wrong, that I can't do that, that I'm not supposed to open them from my PC and listen to them.


Where did anyone say that it's wrong and really bad for you to listen to multitracks?


PM C3's members, if I don't remember wrong. Although I think in the first page messages of this thread there are statements that claim the you're not supposed to use the tracks for anything else than just playing Guitar Hero or C3 software or Fofix or Phase Shift.

So, listening to master tracks in my PC, opening OGG's with VLC player, is not included in what I'm supposed to do with them, so it's wrong.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby raynebc » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:59 pm

rambomhtri wrote:Nobody loses money, so if money is not involved, I can't think about any reason that can be harmful.

Proliferation of the stems is the problem, regardless of what people claim they will use them for. If you want to use the audio for "your own purposes" without requiring the audio to be distributed on the internet, then you should learn how to acquire it yourself. You don't realize how much you're asking when you say C3 should post the unprotected stems on the internet for everybody to access.

You keep claiming that by not selling multitracks, there is no damage to the record label or artists but this is dumbing down the issue too far. The artists' performance has value not only because of the resources it took to create a master recording, but because the recording is unique and identifiable. A particular studio or live recording becomes the definitive version of a song for decades. If everybody has access to the master recording, it can be misused like in the instances you cited. If altered beyond the point of recognition, stems could even used unauthorized in another song, without people even realizing it.

There are values beyond money, such as artistic integrity, and you need to realize that the value you personally place on something isn't always the same as the value placed on it by its creator. Especially with art.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:12 pm

raynebc wrote:Proliferation of the stems is the problem, regardless of what people claim they will use them for.

And the problem also is that multitracks or mixes both have copyright, and C3 members sharing them in multitracks or mixes does not fix nothing. But the thing is that they feel more secure when sharing mixes, which is the point I don't understand and I'm discussing about.

raynebc wrote:If you want to use the audio for "your own purposes" without requiring the audio to be distributed on the internet, then you should learn how to acquire it yourself.

Dumb point, and it does not make any sense at all, for God's sake. I can already do that, indeed, I've done it a few times 'till I discovered I could do it faster and better. I can record the audio output of my PS3, play practice mode, play each instrument isolated, record it, then put that on my computer, then create a MOGG and join everything. Or I can download it from internet.

raynebc wrote:You don't realize how much you're asking when you say C3 should post the unprotected stems on the internet for everybody to access.

I'm not asking anything at all, please, it's the second time I have to tell you that you must read what I type so you don't come up with ideas or requests I never did.

raynebc wrote:You keep claiming that by not selling multitracks, there is no damage to the record label or artists but this is dumbing down the issue too far.

I claim it's not nice to sell multitracks. That's it. I know that's not right. But still, we all users can start to make business here selling multitracks, that the music industry is not going to lose any single cent. Period.

raynebc wrote:The artists' performance has value not only because of the resources it took to create a master recording, but because the recording is unique and identifiable. A particular studio or live recording becomes the definitive version of a song for decades. If everybody has access to the master recording, it can be misused like in the instances you cited.

First, everything you say about master recording, you can apply it to mixes, so I don't know why you're separating those terms when explaining this stuff. Both cost money, even the mix is quite more expensive than master tracks. I told you that you don't even have to look for master recordings. God, did you read my last big post. You can use every single riff you want, every single intro you want, you don't need at all a master track to record. And I already told you musicians that steal material or copy other band's work, it's only a freaking 4 seconds long loop, as I showed you. You don't steal a guitar master track and use it entirely or almost entirely. You just take 4 seconds and loop it. And if it's not clear, you don't need at all a master track to steal something from an artist. Name one single band and I can present to you a song of mine created from one of their songs.

raynebc wrote:If altered beyond the point of recognition, stems could even used unauthorized in another song, without people even realizing it.

So you mean if a band alter a master track so no one can recognize and people don't realize it's that song from 6 years ago and no one can recognize it, it's bad?
I mean, of course it's bad, stealing is bad, and as I already said, I don't even consider this kind of people musicians at all. But your point is beyond logic. It's like saying that stealing money from nowhere, that nobody can ever think its theirs, that does not belong to anyone (which is kind of the same as not being recognized by anyone), is bad for a country.
So you're basically saying that something you can't see, feel, hear, touch or smell is bad for you. Great.
C'mon this is too much sh*t, no body does that, cause if you're stealing it's because you can't make you own thing. It's absurd and this stealing thing is going beyond limits of imagination. People steal samples of 4 seconds (mixed), not master tracks.

raynebc wrote:There are values beyond money, such as artistic integrity, and you need to realize that the value you personally place on something isn't always the same as the value placed on it by its creator. Especially with art.

Yeah, cause Harmonix and all that companies care a lot about music integrity, that's why they are so concern about bringing to us the best music possible from great artists. That's why you go to YouTube most popular music videos and you see great musicians with lot of talent. Yeah. That's why they only work with talented musicians, that's why many times reject to record albums that are a total lie about their performers, cause even it would make them way more richer, the can't do it because they care a lot about music and its integrity.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby raynebc » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:59 pm

rambomhtri wrote:And the problem also is that multitracks or mixes both have copyright

A mix is what everybody in the world is already able to get buying the album off the shelf of a store or spending a dollar for the track from an online music store. Stems are NOT intended to be sold or distributed.

I can already do that, indeed, I've done it a few times 'till I discovered I could do it faster and better. I can record the audio output of my PS3, play practice mode, play each instrument isolated, record it, then put that on my computer, then create a MOGG and join everything. Or I can download it from internet.

Then do it yourself and stop trying to convince other people to do it and post it on the internet, problem solved.

I'm not asking anything at all, please, it's the second time I have to tell you that you must read what I type so you don't come up with ideas or requests I never did.

Pretty much all you do in this thread is suggest there's no reason for C3 to not share multi tracks, to me it seems that's obviously what you want.

I claim it's not nice to sell multitracks. That's it. I know that's not right. But still, we all users can start to make business here selling multitracks, that the music industry is not going to lose any single cent. Period.

You are completely full of it. You claim to know the difference between right and wrong but imply it wouldn't be so bad to do the wrong thing anyway, as if you live in a world devoid of morals other than your own. What about lost cost taking action against people that share stems online, or websites that allow them to be shared among users?

First, everything you say about master recording, you can apply it to mixes, so I don't know why you're separating those terms when explaining this stuff. Both cost money, even the mix is quite more expensive than master tracks.

Just because you repeat a lie over and over again doesn't make it true. If you still don't understand, re-read what we've been telling you. Nowhere in the music industry is a stereo mix considered more valuable than a master recording.

And if it's not clear, you don't need at all a master track to steal something from an artist.

I never implied such a thing. Taking a part of a mix that happens to have no other instruments playing is just "stealing music for dummies". And before you mention it again: No, people don't have to use the entire song length of a stem to be stealing it, they can even just use small parts of it. Having access to a master track would allow somebody to more subtly use parts of a song people wouldn't immediately recognize and associate with a stereo mix. A good example of this is "Makes me wonder" by Maroon 5. Before I played the isolated guitar track in Rock Band 3, I'd never heard the palm muted single note guitar riff in the verse because it always was drowned out by other instruments in the mix. If that part of the instrumentation had been stolen and inserted into another song I wouldn't have been able to tell and I am 100% certain that I wouldn't be the only one to not recognize it.

So you mean if a band alter a master track so no one can recognize and people don't realize it's that song from 6 years ago and no one can recognize it, it's bad?

Yes, that's bad, and you claim you know that. Audio can be processed to alter in any number of ways, changing pitch, speed or even the key of a portion of a song. Your entire counter example was nonsense. Stealing money and working to hide its source is basically money laundering, and is a crime. There are plenty of toxins that can't be seen, felt, heard or smelled but that's not even the point since the entire point of music is that it is heard. You ought to stop with outlandish comparisons that have nothing to do with anything.

Yeah, cause Harmonix and all that companies care a lot about music integrity, that's why they are so concern about bringing to us the best music possible from great artists. That's why you go to YouTube most popular music videos and you see great musicians with lot of talent. Yeah. That's why they only work with talented musicians, that's why many times reject to record albums that are a total lie about their performers, cause even it would make them way more richer, the can't do it because they care a lot about music and its integrity.

You really come off as having little to no respect for the artists that create music, the companies that put up the resources to bring it to the public or the intellectual property or rights of either.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:13 am

raynebc wrote:A mix is what everybody in the world is already able to get buying the album off the shelf of a store or spending a dollar for the track from an online music store. Stems are NOT intended to be sold or distributed.

So stems are. You go to YouTube, you find thousands. You search for Metallica multitracks, you find thousands. But that's not it. The time you play practice mode, boom, you only hear a master track isolated. So...

raynebc wrote:Then do it yourself and stop trying to convince other people to do it and post it on the internet, problem solved.

I've done it in the past as I already said. I'm asking WHY, I'm just asking why. I'm not requesting sh*t neither convincing anyone here to do sh*t. I'm here to ask WHY C3 feels more confident to upload a mix rather than a multitrack song, if anyways both of them have copyright and anyways what they're doing is wrong to the music industry cause it's illegal to share copyrighted content, if I'm not wrong.
And I'm not doing it again. If you want to watch a TV series and you got 1 post with all the seasons already uploaded, and one hard drive with all the audio unsynced, separated, with no subtitles so you have to find them on the internet, what would you do?
Well, I know you'd say the second one cause you can't agree with me, but the rest of the world would do the first option.

raynebc wrote:Pretty much all you do in this thread is suggest there's no reason for C3 to not share multi tracks, to me it seems that's obviously what you want.

Well, that's you imagination, cause if I want to request something, I don't play around. I request it directly. Ask to any C3 member if I have ever requested him a singlo multitrack. The answer is no. I'm here for the WHY, why not sharing multitracks but it's alraight for them to upload mixes.

raynebc wrote:You are completely full of it. You claim to know the difference between right and wrong but imply it wouldn't be so bad to do the wrong thing anyway, as if you live in a world devoid of morals other than your own. What about lost cost taking action against people that share stems online, or websites that allow them to be shared among users?

No, read, please, read. I claim it's not right to sell multitracks, that's what I said, and I understand that pisses off uploaders, but not only here, everywhere. Now, your brain for the third time starts to making up ideas I've never said, like I know what's "right" and what's "wrong", you start to talk about morals and... wow, you have a nice imagination, but please, stick to my sentences and don't go further than what I explicitly type.
That very same lost cost would be the same with mixes, but nevetheless it's alright to share the mixes. Both are illegal to share. Logic please.

raynebc wrote:Just because you repeat a lie over and over again doesn't make it true. If you still don't understand, re-read what we've been telling you. Nowhere in the music industry is a stereo mix considered more valuable than a master recording.

WHY? (and remember, if you're gonna answer that WHY, don't tell me an argument that can also be applied to mixes, cause then it's pointless since I could tell you that very same argument still applies right know to the whole C3 site)
And what lie did I say?

raynebc wrote:I never implied such a thing. Taking a part of a mix that happens to have no other instruments playing is just "stealing music for dummies". And before you mention it again: No, people don't have to use the entire song length of a stem to be stealing it, they can even just use small parts of it. Having access to a master track would allow somebody to more subtly use parts of a song people wouldn't immediately recognize and associate with a stereo mix. A good example of this is "Makes me wonder" by Maroon 5. Before I played the isolated guitar track in Rock Band 3, I'd never heard the palm muted single note guitar riff in the verse because it always was drowned out by other instruments in the mix. If that part of the instrumentation had been stolen and inserted into another song I wouldn't have been able to tell and I am 100% certain that I wouldn't be the only one to not recognize it.

Stealing a part of a mix is for dummies. Right, I would say for dummies, retards and disrespectful wanna be musicians.
But the thing is, what do you expect?
For dummies? Hell yeah for dummies, who else could steal mixes and make them their own, talented musicians?
Be serious, please, wanna be musicians that steal material are dummies and can only be dummies, and of course are not talented at all.
"People don't have to use the entire song lenth to steal." Oh, Sherlock, did you noticed that in my last post up here I said that they only steal 4-5 seconds and loop it 'till Earth dies?
Don't repeat what I already said.
I don't care you can't recognize it. If any single human can recognize it, then the robber is F.U.


raynebc wrote:Yes, that's bad, and you claim you know that. Audio can be processed to alter in any number of ways, changing pitch, speed or even the key of a portion of a song. Your entire counter example was nonsense. Stealing money and working to hide its source is basically money laundering, and is a crime. There are plenty of toxins that can't be seen, felt, heard or smelled but that's not even the point since the entire point of music is that it is heard. You ought to stop with outlandish comparisons that have nothing to do with anything.

Again, something that you can't feel, see, hear, touch or smell is completely harmless, it's obvious. Toxins you don't feel?
Tell me, when those toxins introduce in your body, you don't feel bad?
If the answer is no, then those toxins are the most harmless thing you could ever think about. Just like the stolen part. If there's no way to connect the so altered stolen part to the original, then there's no problem at all. About the money, if you steal money from NOWHERE, that does not belong to anyone, it's not bad for anyone, period. That's the point. You can talk about devaluation of the money, washing money... man, I don't care about all the tiny tricks you can find in an example. It's really simple my point unless you want to troll talking about tiny things of my example and not focusing in what I try to explain with the example. If course it's not the same, that's why we call it example. But is easy as pie to understand it. You steal money from nowhere, there's no harm. You steal an audio track and alter it so much no one can recognize it, then there's no harm.

raynebc wrote:You really come off as having little to no respect for the artists that create music, the companies that put up the resources to bring it to the public or the intellectual property or rights of either.

No, you said companies not only care about money, but music too. I laught so hard about that. Let me tell you something. companies only care about money, companies are out there to make money. Yeah, I have no respect for companies that treat music like sh*t, and they all do. I have respect for musicians, they are the ones who care about music, not companies. Companies don't give a flying sh*t if they hired talented musicians or a bunch of losers and untalented musicians, if they can make profit from it, it's worth it, and they'll squeeze the losers the most they can.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:34 am

rambomhtri wrote:PM C3's members, if I don't remember wrong.


You made a specific claim, please back it up so we can see why it was done. Which C3 member and where said to you that "it's wrong and really bad for you to listen to multitracks"?
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby rambomhtri » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:48 am

farottone wrote:
rambomhtri wrote:PM C3's members, if I don't remember wrong.


You made a specific claim, please back it up so we can see why it was done. Which C3 member and where said to you that "it's wrong and really bad for you to listen to multitracks"?

Why are you focusing in the less important thing?
After all my messages, is it that your question?
Wow. If you're not interested in this thread's topic or you also have the very same questions like me, but you don't like to admit it, then just wait for someone to leave here some solid reason that make me understand why C3 decided that mixes are safer in some way to share than multitracks.

About your question, I think it was TrojanNemo, but you can read here plenty of times I'm not supposed to listen to multitracks outside the game.
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Re: C3's question thread

Postby farottone » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:34 am

rambomhtri wrote:After all my messages, is it that your question?


Yes, I want to know if you are a straight up liar or if somebody actually told you that it's wrong for you to listen to multitracks (which isn't a scandal in itself, but I would like to debate that). You are saying that somebody from our group did that, please provide some proof of that: quote of what was said to you, by whom, when. Anything else you say is really unimportant: you don't understand simple business and licensing logics so it makes no sense to continue on that path. A number of people have explained to you why, you don't understand very very simple concepts (just the fact that you think that an MP3 available from thousands if not hundred of thousands of sources is as valuable and as in need of protection than something only available from one single source boggles the mind), there is no way of making you understand. I'm a C3 founder and admin, I have explained why, people here have all understood except you. You are clearly lacking basic knowledge of business, licensing, optics, etc. so it's not worth it repeating things that you won't understand.
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