Dream Theater - A Dramatic Turn Of Events discussion

[kilipeti]

I started this thread to discuss the new album, I want to listen to other opinions.

I myself find it a bit boring.
I've been with DT for a LOOOONG time and I'm a big fan, they are my all-time favourite band, to set things right.

I've listened to the new album like 2 times. Don't get me wrong it's good, but I find it boring somehow. I can't really listen to it for long time, I'm all abroad after a while.
Some great riffs but many too avarage themes and many repeated stuff.

Some said that BC&SL was a disappointment and they were getting boring but I thought that album was genious! Although we got a bit too much of Rudess already IMO.
This is the only album I find boring although there are some great moments and awesome acoustic elements.
It's not that I'm getting tired of DT's techniques but it's overall a bit boring.

Also, it's there that I don't like Mangini. He plays well but he can't write smart stuff. Portnoy could write ingenious songs and drum parts, and though Mangini is only responsible for the drums, I can't find any outstanding handling of rhytmics. Portnoy was exciting, Mangini is technical but boring.
I saw them live with Mangini, of course he can play well (he IS the fastest drummer as well), but playing songs you've learned and writing stuff is very different.
IMHO Minnemann could be a much more proper choice it would've brought fresh blood into DT, could've been very interesting.

This is still DT, but not the old DT. I'm always hearing that this is a "back to the roots' album, but I don't see the point. Oh well, come on! I can't hear any of the old DT. Some elements maybe. But overall this is a darker, more "mature" prog metal!
I also heard that Lost Not Forgotten is much similar to Under A Glass Moon. I may be deaf, but I can't hear any similiraties between them...

It's amazing that Petrucci wrote almost the whole album especially the lyrics. He did only the 30-40% earlier, now he is to do the whole thing. That should end up he runs out of good stuff very soon.
I always thought he is getting better and better in playing the guitar through BC&SL, those solos OMG! But on the new album I haven't found such ingenious solos yet. I'm a bit disappointed. Also, he can be repetative when it comes to riffs as well!
LTE was so awesome but I think they wrote out the best things there of themselves.

I recognize many of the songs not to be new but a mixture of earlier DT, LTE and Petrucci stuff.

It's a good album but certainly not a hit with me. They will always remain as the roots of progressive metal and the most technical of the popular era but I think they are running short.

[crazy.neo]

Honestly after Six Degrees I lost all interest. They will never be that good again.

[SUSAltd]

So far I've only heard that one about the backs of angels, and my biggest complaint is probably the drums. The crash cymbals sound nearly nonexistent.

[thebocaj]

Just downloaded the album onto my iPod. Guess I'll update this post once I've listened to it. I also think it's nice that John Myung contributed to the songwriting for one of the songs (can't remember the name but it's the longest one on the album I think).

Edit: Great album. I'd say it's one of their better albums, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's better than BC&SL, although that's one of my favourite albums of all time. I'll be charting one song from the album for the starter set of songs for Bocaj Hero IV (which I'm charting the final 3 songs for right now).

Also, about the general "which DT is best DT" discussion that seems to be going on, IMO it's quite even between old DT (up to Awake) and new DT's less heavy albums (SDoIT, Octa, BC&SL and ADToE). Not a fan of M2, ToT or SC though.

[aander91]

Honestly after Six Degrees I lost all interest. They will never be that good again.

I stopped at Octavarium.

[Kotti]

Listened it through a couple of times and found myself asking "Haven't I heard this before?" and "Why am I listening to this when Images & Words is far better?" Apparently those questions made a lot more sense than I first thought.

Wall of text explaining how ADTOE is like I&W.

Dream Theater’s highly anticipated new album is a week shy of hitting the shelves, and already the glowing reviews are pouring in from journalists, DJs, music bloggers, authors from around the world. “A Dramatic Turn of Events” is their first release featuring new drummer Mike Mangini, and one with the huge task of proving to the fans that the band is alive and well after Mike Portnoy’s departure.

I have heard the album, and will say I thought it was very good overall! Considering I admittedly did not like Black Clouds & Silver Linings all that much, and how weird it is to think of a Dream Theater without Portnoy (Just because I love the man’s drumming, and thought it to be a big part of why I love this band. I’m very aware of how competent everyone in the band is), this new album was a relief for me, and I’m enjoying it a lot! Having said that, this post is not about me reviewing the album, at least not in the traditional way reviews are expected to be presented in. I am here to talk to you about the similarities between “A Dramatic Turn of Events’ and Dream Theater’s own 1992 release, “Images and Words”, a matter that hasn’t been touched by any review I’ve read so far.

Okay, maybe “similarities” isn’t quite enough to describe the relationship between the 2 albums I’m about to present to you, but let that be the word for now.

As some of you know, I am the guitarist/producer/mixer/editor of the “VRA! Split-Screen Covers”, an online collaborative project, where we record cover performances and post them on Youtube. So far we have covered 5 Dream Theater songs. Between this project, covering a few of John Petrucci’s solos, playing DT’s music with my own band for fun at times, and generally being a DT fan for over 12 years, I think it’s safe to say that I know my Dream Theater well by now. Btw, I’m also the guitarist in "Bad Salad” (we’re about to hit the studio to record our debut - http://www.facebook.com/BadSalad ), an architect, an amazing boyfriend and awesome soccer player, and generally a nice modest guy. :) … So before anyone wants to be funny about it, no, I don’t just hang around “DTing” all day.

Our latest Split-Screen Cover was of “On the Backs of Angels”, the only single off “A Dramatic Turn of Events” that was officially put out early in its entirety. Roadrunner Records released the song on their Youtube channel on June 28th, and we had our cover up by July 10th.

While I was learning how to play the song and memorizing the arrangements I noticed similarities between it and “Pull me Under”, but didn’t get too crazy over it since the time was short and I had so much to do to get the collab up (guitar playing is actually the least of my worries when I’m producing a collab like this).

When I finally heard the rest of the album, and got over the initial excitement of how awesome it was, I began spotting more similarities… “Wow, this sounds like that part on Under a Glass Moon”, “This verse develops just like that verse in Learning to Live”… The more I heard it the more “Images and Words” nuggets I found. This wasn’t just a coincidence, I was finding references to almost every song of “Images and Words” on the new album, so I decided to A/B the albums and make notes. I came to the wonderfully shocking conclusion that the entire album (or almost, I'm positive on at least 6 songs) was written based off of the charts of Images & Words songs. I know this might come across as an absurd accusation to many of you, but I wouldn’t be coming out in public with this information if I hadn’t done my homework, and if I wasn’t confident this approach to writing the new album was a conscious/intentional decision, maybe even humorous, by the band.

When I say the songs were written-off-the-charts I mean arrangement-wise, their structures, sometimes even orchestrations and nuances that make the parts what they are, and their roles within the songs. This doesn't mean they will sound alike at all, because within a given guideline for arrangement you could write virtually an infinite amount of different songs, and mainstream/pop has been doing so for decades to back me up on this statement. :)

Some of these songs are so equal in terms of arrangements that I’m surprised more people didn’t catch on to this nugget yet. Others just follow a rougher guideline (or so it seems to me at this point). Here are the matches I was able to make:


On the Backs of Angels – Pull me Under
Lost Not Forgotten – Under a Glass Moon
This is the Life – Another Day
Far from Heaven / Breaking All Illusions – Wait for Sleep / Learning to Live
Outcry – Metropolis Part 1
Bridges in the Sky – **Take the Time**
Build Me Up, Break Me Down – **Surrounded**

**Now, these last 2 matches, “Bridges in the Sky” and “Build me Up, Break me Down” were the 2 I found that followed a rougher guideline. If it weren’t for the precise pairing of the other songs on the album I might not even associate these with “Take the Time” and “Surrounded”. As it is I had to interpret how they would interpret the charts for these songs, if that makes any sense, and maybe even understand their roles on the album. For example, Surrounded was a very keyboard-driven song, and “Build Me Up, Break me Down” is too, just in a more modern way. Anyway, these 2 definitely require some more researching to allow me to come to plausible conclusions, for now I'm just suspecting the matches.

All other songs though are VERY easy to A/B (I've done them all), and you might have some fun in doing so yourself. I will go through a couple of them below however, just so you know what I mean.

BTW, “Beneath the Surface” was a song John Petrucci wrote at home on his own and presented to the band AFTER the album was done. They mentioned this on an interview, that he thought this song would fit very nicely to cool down the album at the end, so the band agreed and worked on it. This is why there are 9 songs instead of just 8.

When you compare the songs you’ll notice sometimes it’s a bit hard to spot where one section ends and another one begins if you are expecting them to be of the same length. Don’t think of it this way. In general, the sections are longer on “A Dramatic Turn of Events”. It’s as if DT redid Images and Words with an “over the top” mindset. The solos are longer, and the unisons/harmonies are longer and crazier. Keep that in mind and you’ll stay on track while comparing the pairs.

THIS IS THE LIFE – ANOTHER DAY:
Intro clean/acoustic guitar 2x
Full band + thematic guitar solo 1x
*Cool down*
Verse 1: Piano + vocals
Verse 1: Piano + vocals + guitar volume swells
Chorus: drums slowly build up
Thematic solo again, “quieter” (played by the Sax on “Another Day”, cleaner guitar + keys on “This is the Life”)
Verse 2: (harmonically/melodically similar to verse 1, but over a groove throughout)
Chorus
Bridge (climb)
Guitar solo (not exactly the “Theme”, but derived from it)
Chorus (this time played at it’s “strongest”)
Instrumental ending on the theme (once again with the guitar in place of Saxophone)

LOST NOT FORGOTTEN – UNDER A GLASS MOON:

**piano intro presenting the theme** (this is only present on “Lost not Forgotten” and actually attempts to throw you off. I personally believe this “chopin” moment was added after the song was done)
Guitar + key plays the theme (guitar: Root + Octave, slides up and down the neck)
Drums join in: Double Bass patterns (doubled by the bass guitar) + 4/4 snare feel
Drums/Bass continue the pattern, guitars are harmonizing over the theme
Guitar joins drums and bass on the “Pattern” they were doing (+unison riff to lead to the next part)
Weird-ass guitar/key unison (diminished, full-tone type vibe) / drums & bass speed it up (double feel)
Verse 1 Riff (4/4) *no vocals yet*
Verse 1 Riff (4/4) + keys (serving the pad role) + Vocals
Verse… (getting hotter to lead into the chorus)
Chorus: Double-bass drums + /8 snare feel + intricate unison riffing in between chorus lines (fast bit at the end)
Verse 1 riffing again (no vox)
Verse 2 riff: guitar cools down, Bass guitar is supporting the rhythm more predominantly
Bridge: Bass still holding it together, guitar doing higher single dotted 4th notes (keys supporting these notes)
Chorus: (same style)… with the in-between vocal lines riffing and the “quickie” finishing it off
break: Keys playing the whole weird break lines + guitar and bass just accenting a few notes (lots of pauses)
Guitar joins keys on the lead lines, bass still holds the accents
Guitar plays a power-chord type variation of this theme + bass: keys are now pad-style
(band pauses just before the guitar solo)
Guitar solo, over 3 different accompaniment/progressions/moods
Instrumental bit “in-between solos”
Keyboard solo (“airy/dreamy” ascending chords)
Weird Full-Band Unison/Break (the type you need to count through until you memorize)
Chorus (with slight vocal variations on the 2nd part) - no more in-between riffing like on the previous choruses
“quickie” riff once again
Main epic theme from the intro (Root + Octave guitar) + that double bass drum pattern with the bass guitar
Closing riff

This should be enough to illustrate what I’m talking about. Hope you have some fun figuring this stuff out for yourself while listening to the other songs on the album. Here’s one more interesting fact to everything I just pointed out: John Myung wrote 1 lyrics for Images and Words, and it was “Learning to Live”, and he only wrote lyrics for “Breaking All Illusions” on the new album.

I have no idea why Dream Theater did this. Maybe because it was the album that “made them” in a time where it was a do or die for their careers, so it’s an inspiring model. Maybe because this represents a new beginning for them with Mike Mangini, as it was when James Labrie joined the band back then. Maybe to celebrate 20 years of the album that defined the Dream Theater sound? Maybe they just thought it would be a fun challenge to write unique songs over pre-established charts, much like a few fans did (myself included) when they held the Stream of Consciousness song-writing contest back in 2002-2003. Either way, I applaud them for having the balls to do it and for the overall quality the end result turned out to have. I know how hard it is to write a song based off of a pre-established arrangement and have it sound concise, genuine and inspired. The tendency is to have a ducked up Frankenstein instead of music, so props to DT for pulling it off.

I opted to make this as a note on my own facebook profile because I don’t want to spoil it for those who would rather make these discoveries on their own. If you do post my words anywhere outside of here please include a [SPOILER] tag to alert people of the content.

Take care and rock on!
- Thiago Campos

[kilipeti]

Listened it through a couple of times and found myself asking "Haven't I heard this before?" and "Why am I listening to this when Images & Words is far better?" Apparently those questions made a lot more sense than I first thought.

Wall of text explaining how ADTOE is like I&W.

Dream Theater’s highly anticipated new album is a week shy of hitting the shelves, and already the glowing reviews are pouring in from journalists, DJs, music bloggers, authors from around the world. “A Dramatic Turn of Events” is their first release featuring new drummer Mike Mangini, and one with the huge task of proving to the fans that the band is alive and well after Mike Portnoy’s departure.

I have heard the album, and will say I thought it was very good overall! Considering I admittedly did not like Black Clouds & Silver Linings all that much, and how weird it is to think of a Dream Theater without Portnoy (Just because I love the man’s drumming, and thought it to be a big part of why I love this band. I’m very aware of how competent everyone in the band is), this new album was a relief for me, and I’m enjoying it a lot! Having said that, this post is not about me reviewing the album, at least not in the traditional way reviews are expected to be presented in. I am here to talk to you about the similarities between “A Dramatic Turn of Events’ and Dream Theater’s own 1992 release, “Images and Words”, a matter that hasn’t been touched by any review I’ve read so far.

Okay, maybe “similarities” isn’t quite enough to describe the relationship between the 2 albums I’m about to present to you, but let that be the word for now.

As some of you know, I am the guitarist/producer/mixer/editor of the “VRA! Split-Screen Covers”, an online collaborative project, where we record cover performances and post them on Youtube. So far we have covered 5 Dream Theater songs. Between this project, covering a few of John Petrucci’s solos, playing DT’s music with my own band for fun at times, and generally being a DT fan for over 12 years, I think it’s safe to say that I know my Dream Theater well by now. Btw, I’m also the guitarist in "Bad Salad” (we’re about to hit the studio to record our debut - http://www.facebook.com/BadSalad ), an architect, an amazing boyfriend and awesome soccer player, and generally a nice modest guy. :) … So before anyone wants to be funny about it, no, I don’t just hang around “DTing” all day.

Our latest Split-Screen Cover was of “On the Backs of Angels”, the only single off “A Dramatic Turn of Events” that was officially put out early in its entirety. Roadrunner Records released the song on their Youtube channel on June 28th, and we had our cover up by July 10th.

While I was learning how to play the song and memorizing the arrangements I noticed similarities between it and “Pull me Under”, but didn’t get too crazy over it since the time was short and I had so much to do to get the collab up (guitar playing is actually the least of my worries when I’m producing a collab like this).

When I finally heard the rest of the album, and got over the initial excitement of how awesome it was, I began spotting more similarities… “Wow, this sounds like that part on Under a Glass Moon”, “This verse develops just like that verse in Learning to Live”… The more I heard it the more “Images and Words” nuggets I found. This wasn’t just a coincidence, I was finding references to almost every song of “Images and Words” on the new album, so I decided to A/B the albums and make notes. I came to the wonderfully shocking conclusion that the entire album (or almost, I'm positive on at least 6 songs) was written based off of the charts of Images & Words songs. I know this might come across as an absurd accusation to many of you, but I wouldn’t be coming out in public with this information if I hadn’t done my homework, and if I wasn’t confident this approach to writing the new album was a conscious/intentional decision, maybe even humorous, by the band.

When I say the songs were written-off-the-charts I mean arrangement-wise, their structures, sometimes even orchestrations and nuances that make the parts what they are, and their roles within the songs. This doesn't mean they will sound alike at all, because within a given guideline for arrangement you could write virtually an infinite amount of different songs, and mainstream/pop has been doing so for decades to back me up on this statement. :)

Some of these songs are so equal in terms of arrangements that I’m surprised more people didn’t catch on to this nugget yet. Others just follow a rougher guideline (or so it seems to me at this point). Here are the matches I was able to make:


On the Backs of Angels – Pull me Under
Lost Not Forgotten – Under a Glass Moon
This is the Life – Another Day
Far from Heaven / Breaking All Illusions – Wait for Sleep / Learning to Live
Outcry – Metropolis Part 1
Bridges in the Sky – **Take the Time**
Build Me Up, Break Me Down – **Surrounded**

**Now, these last 2 matches, “Bridges in the Sky” and “Build me Up, Break me Down” were the 2 I found that followed a rougher guideline. If it weren’t for the precise pairing of the other songs on the album I might not even associate these with “Take the Time” and “Surrounded”. As it is I had to interpret how they would interpret the charts for these songs, if that makes any sense, and maybe even understand their roles on the album. For example, Surrounded was a very keyboard-driven song, and “Build Me Up, Break me Down” is too, just in a more modern way. Anyway, these 2 definitely require some more researching to allow me to come to plausible conclusions, for now I'm just suspecting the matches.

All other songs though are VERY easy to A/B (I've done them all), and you might have some fun in doing so yourself. I will go through a couple of them below however, just so you know what I mean.

BTW, “Beneath the Surface” was a song John Petrucci wrote at home on his own and presented to the band AFTER the album was done. They mentioned this on an interview, that he thought this song would fit very nicely to cool down the album at the end, so the band agreed and worked on it. This is why there are 9 songs instead of just 8.

When you compare the songs you’ll notice sometimes it’s a bit hard to spot where one section ends and another one begins if you are expecting them to be of the same length. Don’t think of it this way. In general, the sections are longer on “A Dramatic Turn of Events”. It’s as if DT redid Images and Words with an “over the top” mindset. The solos are longer, and the unisons/harmonies are longer and crazier. Keep that in mind and you’ll stay on track while comparing the pairs.

THIS IS THE LIFE – ANOTHER DAY:
Intro clean/acoustic guitar 2x
Full band + thematic guitar solo 1x
*Cool down*
Verse 1: Piano + vocals
Verse 1: Piano + vocals + guitar volume swells
Chorus: drums slowly build up
Thematic solo again, “quieter” (played by the Sax on “Another Day”, cleaner guitar + keys on “This is the Life”)
Verse 2: (harmonically/melodically similar to verse 1, but over a groove throughout)
Chorus
Bridge (climb)
Guitar solo (not exactly the “Theme”, but derived from it)
Chorus (this time played at it’s “strongest”)
Instrumental ending on the theme (once again with the guitar in place of Saxophone)

LOST NOT FORGOTTEN – UNDER A GLASS MOON:

**piano intro presenting the theme** (this is only present on “Lost not Forgotten” and actually attempts to throw you off. I personally believe this “chopin” moment was added after the song was done)
Guitar + key plays the theme (guitar: Root + Octave, slides up and down the neck)
Drums join in: Double Bass patterns (doubled by the bass guitar) + 4/4 snare feel
Drums/Bass continue the pattern, guitars are harmonizing over the theme
Guitar joins drums and bass on the “Pattern” they were doing (+unison riff to lead to the next part)
Weird-ass guitar/key unison (diminished, full-tone type vibe) / drums & bass speed it up (double feel)
Verse 1 Riff (4/4) *no vocals yet*
Verse 1 Riff (4/4) + keys (serving the pad role) + Vocals
Verse… (getting hotter to lead into the chorus)
Chorus: Double-bass drums + /8 snare feel + intricate unison riffing in between chorus lines (fast bit at the end)
Verse 1 riffing again (no vox)
Verse 2 riff: guitar cools down, Bass guitar is supporting the rhythm more predominantly
Bridge: Bass still holding it together, guitar doing higher single dotted 4th notes (keys supporting these notes)
Chorus: (same style)… with the in-between vocal lines riffing and the “quickie” finishing it off
break: Keys playing the whole weird break lines + guitar and bass just accenting a few notes (lots of pauses)
Guitar joins keys on the lead lines, bass still holds the accents
Guitar plays a power-chord type variation of this theme + bass: keys are now pad-style
(band pauses just before the guitar solo)
Guitar solo, over 3 different accompaniment/progressions/moods
Instrumental bit “in-between solos”
Keyboard solo (“airy/dreamy” ascending chords)
Weird Full-Band Unison/Break (the type you need to count through until you memorize)
Chorus (with slight vocal variations on the 2nd part) - no more in-between riffing like on the previous choruses
“quickie” riff once again
Main epic theme from the intro (Root + Octave guitar) + that double bass drum pattern with the bass guitar
Closing riff

This should be enough to illustrate what I’m talking about. Hope you have some fun figuring this stuff out for yourself while listening to the other songs on the album. Here’s one more interesting fact to everything I just pointed out: John Myung wrote 1 lyrics for Images and Words, and it was “Learning to Live”, and he only wrote lyrics for “Breaking All Illusions” on the new album.

I have no idea why Dream Theater did this. Maybe because it was the album that “made them” in a time where it was a do or die for their careers, so it’s an inspiring model. Maybe because this represents a new beginning for them with Mike Mangini, as it was when James Labrie joined the band back then. Maybe to celebrate 20 years of the album that defined the Dream Theater sound? Maybe they just thought it would be a fun challenge to write unique songs over pre-established charts, much like a few fans did (myself included) when they held the Stream of Consciousness song-writing contest back in 2002-2003. Either way, I applaud them for having the balls to do it and for the overall quality the end result turned out to have. I know how hard it is to write a song based off of a pre-established arrangement and have it sound concise, genuine and inspired. The tendency is to have a ducked up Frankenstein instead of music, so props to DT for pulling it off.

I opted to make this as a note on my own facebook profile because I don’t want to spoil it for those who would rather make these discoveries on their own. If you do post my words anywhere outside of here please include a [SPOILER] tag to alert people of the content.

Take care and rock on!
- Thiago Campos

Wow well... After this I have to renew my thoughts and appreciation XD
Mmm, after listening to the album the 6rd time, I also discovered that this is very, awesomely good, I'm just bored of it, it's just that "Oh, what the hell? Entirely new, but still sooo much like I've heard them".
But it was very brave of them releasing an album based on existing charts. In that form it is even genious-like!

[piinyouri]

I wasn't impressed to be honest.
And it's not Mangini's fault either.
I was happy that they took a turn away from the heavy stuff (somewhat) and really had my hopes set that they would return to something approximating the Awake or Metropolis days.
Which I guess they did, but something got lost in translation because the arrangements are just dull and lifeless to me.
I've been listening to Anubis Gate's new release to supplement my disappointment.

[Stefan_Alfons]

Haven't listened that much to the new album. Black Clouds is my favorite though.

[Puppetz]

Petrucci made the drum tracks for this album on a program. Mangini just played it in the studio. For those you didn't know?!

I think BC&SL was a great album... but I think this album beats octavarium and systematic chaos any day. Why hasn't anyone given Breaking All Illusions the credits it deservs? It's a f*cking masterpiece!

[Electro Tomato]

My favorite Dream Theater album was Nightmare

[TKTK]

Just found this thread when trying to find some A Dramatic Turn of Events songs as the ones ive found so far are dead. So i thought id offer my opinion on A Dramatic Turn of Events

Ive been listening for DT for just over a year now, and when i first tried out ADTOE i flicked through some of the songs, tried listening to some of them properly, but it just never clicked with me, as the OP said. Probably because i was still getting used to the whole complexity of prog metal in general. But i watched live at Luna Park, and started listening to it properly, and i realised how mistaken i was. It really is a great album.

I think as a whole album it is obviously as not good as the likes of Metropolis pt2 (which is still the best thing i have ever heard) or Train of Thought. But it does have a good variation throughout the album, and the songs themselves have alot of variation (as do most DT songs).

Im not too big on the slower songs on the album, eventhough they do fit in well, as it gives the album some variation, but i think all of the faster/heavier songs are exceptional. (But i wish they made more of that amazing riff that repeats at the start of Outcry, what a beast riff that is).

TK