Inception

[warhol]

What I never could understand was when the woke up in the plane. Why did they wake up underwater in the car? That was the first dream part, no? Wouldn't it wake them up fully?

Bah, I need to re-watch it.

Actually, the reason Saito and Cobb never woke up in the van is because they were still in Limbo. When Saito shot himself and Cobb, they died in limbo and it brought them directly back to reality, just like when Cobb and Mal did the same thing with the train.

So you mean

Jumping off a building in a dream will bring you up by one stage
Jumping off a building in limbo will bring you all the way up? Then how's Ariadne get to the snow dream after jumping off a building in limbo?

[tibiazak]

As I said...

The rules governing limbo are never fully explained, resulting in questions like this. The likely explanation is that going to limbo because you died would cause you to go all the way up when you died again in limbo but if you go to limbo by just dropping down enough dream levels, then it'd act as if it wasn't limbo, which is what ariadne and cobb (and mal) did.

The alternative is that dying in limbo NEVER brings you all the way up - you could theoretically explain Cobb and Saito getting out of limbo by showing that there wasn't actually any other dream layer to go to... I'm pretty sure their bodies in the other layers would have died since they didn't wake up during the kicks (dropping an elevator? drowning? getting blown up? they'd have been dead.) therefore limbo was the only dream layer (excepting, of course, the theoretical dream layer that cobb accepts as reality) - which enables Cobb and Mal to just move up a layer when they die in limbo.

[NYRangers360]

So you mean

Jumping off a building in a dream will bring you up by one stage
Jumping off a building in limbo will bring you all the way up? Then how's Ariadne get to the snow dream after jumping off a building in limbo?

WELL! You're looking at jumping off a building as killing yourself, yes?
The thing is, they use jumping off the building as a kick. The feeling of falling wakes them up and brings them up a level, because they wake up before they die. They never show them hitting the ground, right?
Both Ariadne and Fisher jumped/fell off the buildings in limbo, and it brought both of them up to the hospital level (Eames' dream).

[tibiazak]

I thought that initially, but no. See, the kick has to be delivered in the next level up, not in the dream itself. That's why... uh... Cobb's friend (whose name escapes me at the moment) was tipped over in his chair in reality to demonstrate how a kick works. And that's why Cobb was dumped into the tub in the opening sequence. I'm pretty sure they were intending either to kill themselves when they jumped off the building or it was just symbolic of them leaving and Cobb staying to finish what he was doing - because I don't think there was actually a kick prepared for them in the ice-fortress-thing...

[NYRangers360]

No no, remember when they were planning to follow Fisher down they said they'd have to improvise a kick? Then right when Ariadne kicks him off the deck she says "Improvising." I know it has to happen the next level up, but the 2 layers have to sync up. Which is what happens. Fisher getting shocked with the defib syncs up with him falling, and Ariadne falling syncs up with her falling on the hospital level.
Edit: And the kick prepared for them was when Eames was setting all the charges. He set them all on the supports so that the entire hospital would fall.
The kicks:
Layer 1: The van
Layer 2: The elevator
Layer 3: The hospital falling
Limbo: Jumping from the building.
Limbo and layer 3 synced up for Fisher, waking him up in the hospital with his dad. They also synced up for Ariadne, but she woke up at the same time as kicks from the first 2 levels, which is why she was the first awake in the van.

[tibiazak]

No no, remember when they were planning to follow Fisher down they said they'd have to improvise a kick? Then right when Ariadne kicks him off the deck she says "Improvising." I know it has to happen the next level up, but the 2 layers have to sync up. Which is what happens. Fisher getting shocked with the defib syncs up with him falling, and Ariadne falling syncs up with her falling on the hospital level.
Edit: And the kick prepared for them was when Eames was setting all the charges. He set them all on the supports so that the entire hospital would fall.
The kicks:
Layer 1: The van
Layer 2: The elevator
Layer 3: The hospital falling
Limbo: Jumping from the building.
Limbo and layer 3 synced up for Fisher, waking him up in the hospital with his dad. They also synced up for Ariadne, but she woke up at the same time as kicks from the first 2 levels, which is why she was the first awake in the van.

You're ignoring...

the final kick. The plane descending into LAX is the final kick - sensation of falling. The improv'd "kick" is, as near as i can tell, death + defib. I can't really comment on this any more until I've seen the movie again...

[NYRangers360]

You're ignoring...

the final kick. The plane descending into LAX is the final kick - sensation of falling. The improv'd "kick" is, as near as i can tell, death + defib. I can't really comment on this any more until I've seen the movie again...

You're right! I didn't even think of that, very astute observations and a good catch, my friend. Although:

Death doesn't act as a kick in limbo. Which is why I'm pretty sure it's falling and defib, not death. Death would bring them right back to the top, and not to the hospital where Fisher meets his dad and completes the mission

[warhol]

Wait, so what does dying in limbo do?

[NYRangers360]

Wait, so what does dying in limbo do?

Dying in limbo brings you straight back to reality.

Which is what happens to Cobb and Mal, and in the end Saito and Cobb.
That's ALSO why Ariadne and Fisher couldn't have been jumping off the building to die, they had to be using it as a kick, counting on the kicks syncing up before they hit the ground.

[tibiazak]

Then... how did

a simple kick and a defibrilator revive Fisher? Dude was dead. I still say that dying in limbo will either bring you up one level (if your body is alive in the next dream level - meaning you got to limbo by diving) or it will shoot you back to reality if you died to get there. Fisher fulfilled requirement for living body for an instant when the defib was used, and that combined with them being a dream caused him to live again.

Interestingly, I might have just discovered a plot hole. In the opening sequence, when whatshisname gets shot, he wakes up in the next dream level up. But when /fisher/ dies, he goes into limbo. He SHOULD have gone back to the hotel, shouldn't he? It's not like they used the sedative (or at least, I don't think they did) inside the dreams....

edit: thinking about it...

my theory about him being alive for an instant actually works with your theory about kicks. I STILL say that's not how kicks work though.

edit 2: about kicks:

Here's evidence for my theory about kicks... your position is that a kick takes place /within/ the dream, I say it does not. The kick has to take place OUTSIDE of the dream for the person to wake up, and this is supported with this. Wiki links to that article from the word "kick" in the Inception wiki (which also has a very good explanation of the plot with no mention of an in-limbo kick) and the article describes the kick quite well.

[NYRangers360]

Then... how did

a simple kick and a defibrilator revive Fisher? Dude was dead. I still say that dying in limbo will either bring you up one level (if your body is alive in the next dream level - meaning you got to limbo by diving) or it will shoot you back to reality if you died to get there. Fisher fulfilled requirement for living body for an instant when the defib was used, and that combined with them being a dream caused him to live again.

Interestingly, I might have just discovered a plot hole. In the opening sequence, when whatshisname gets shot, he wakes up in the next dream level up. But when /fisher/ dies, he goes into limbo. He SHOULD have gone back to the hotel, shouldn't he? It's not like they used the sedative (or at least, I don't think they did) inside the dreams....

edit: thinking about it...

my theory about him being alive for an instant actually works with your theory about kicks. I STILL say that's not how kicks work though.

edit 2: about kicks:

Here's evidence for my theory about kicks... your position is that a kick takes place /within/ the dream, I say it does not. The kick has to take place OUTSIDE of the dream for the person to wake up, and this is supported with this. Wiki links to that article from the word "kick" in the Inception wiki (which also has a very good explanation of the plot with no mention of an in-limbo kick) and the article describes the kick quite well.

Lots of ground to cover here :-p
In response to your plot hole:

The difference between the opening scene is that the "dream team" is on a train, not sedated in any way. Thus, when Arthur dies in a dream, he wakes up. That's the point that everyone is counting on once they start the mission.

Also, about my position on kicks:

Maybe I haven't really been clear. I don't think a kick only takes place within a dream. It does take place outside a dream in normal circumstances, but with how heavily the dreamers were sedated on the plane, they had to match up all the kicks to penetrate the layers. That's why the central dream that the entire movie is based around is hard to figure out, and the open ending worked so well. They weren't playing by the normal rules they set up in the beginning of the movie.
Also, I really like your defib theory.

Just as a general point about limbo and the mission dream, a dialog:

Eames: I'm going to wake him up, he's in agony
Cobb: He won't wake up.
Eames: What do you mean he won't wake up, if we die in a dream we wake up
Cobb: Not when he's this heavily sedated, he'll drop into limbo.

So the difference/plot hole you saw is actually just the presence/lack of sedation coming into play

[tibiazak]

Point 1:

except the sedation only affects the top layer as far as I can tell - they can't wake up from the first dream, because they're sedated. However, since they aren't sedated inside the dreams, they could (logically) die in the mountain and wake up in the hotel. Saito went into limbo because he died in the van. And the opening sequence is a dream-within-a-dream, and Arthur doesn't go back to reality when he gets shot, he goes into the next dream layer up.

Kicks:

But, for example, if they were all in the mountain, what would a kick within the mountain do? Nothing. A kick has to be done in the next layer up from the dream or nothing happens. You can fall in a dream (I vividly remember having a dream where I was jumping off of my roof. Don't ask me why. The falling sensation in the dream didn't wake me up.) and not wake up. But, for example, if you're sitting in a chair asleep, and someone tips the chair over, you'll wake up. The timing of the kicks was so they could quickly and immediately GTFO of the dreams.

So,

unless the sedation factors into multiple dream layers, the plot hole still exists, afaik. Honestly, I'm going to buy this movie as soon as it comes out on DVD, and immediately watch it with commentary on. :P

[NYRangers360]

As for the first point:

I think sedation affects every layer. It does affect the brain, right? All the dreams operate from the brain, so it's not too crazy to assume that all layers are affected. Also, Saito dies in all 3 layers, I believe.

For the kicks thing:

See, I'm the opposite way. If I'm in a dream and I start falling, I jump awake and it startles the hell out of me. I guess they only were taking advantage of the way people like you dream in this movie though, but hey, they can't accommodate everyone. So given what we are by the movie, you're right about that.

Also, I agree with you about buying the movie. Blu ray and dvd for me, no doubt about it :-p I'll also be putting up my 8 foot standee that I got from the movie theater in my dorm when I move in next week :-p
And another thing,

sorry if I seem like I'm just being contradictory, because I'm not. I really like engaging discussions about this movie cause everyone else who tried to disagree with the ending being reality just gave the dumbest examples and it was pointless to talk to them. So thank you for this back and forth, no matter how long it lasts for!

[warhol]

Correct me if I'm wrong about this:

-Ariadne and Fischer in Limbo jumped.
-Since they had a falling sensation, they woke up into the hospital before they "died"

-If you're dead and you go to limbo, jumping off or killing yourself in limbo will bring you all the way back up
-Since Saito died from the bullet wound, this applies to him

-Since Cobb drowned in the van, he died
-Since that was level one of the dream, dying meant that Cobb would wind up in limbo instead of waking up in reality due to the sedatives

-Cobb and Saito killed themselves in Limbo, or the sedatives wore off, and woke up in the plane

Btw I think waking up from a dream comes from a falling sensation from inside the dream OR a falling sensation in real life.

[Breadache]

I watched it about a week ago, so I'm slightly forgetful of the details but...

I've thought about it for a bit, and wondered if he really did kill his wife. The way he remembers it didn't make sense, why is the room a mess of broken glass, why is it she is sitting on the opposite window to the one they're staying in. I heard there are other hints throughout that suggest as much.

Something else that crossed my mind, the way she (I really can't remember all their weird ass names) kept appearing in his dream, and trying to convince him of something is exactly like inception, as though she was trying to plant an idea in his mind, was the film a dream that she built? What stuck out was how he had said to never let anyone else touch your own totem, but then admitted that his own wasn't even his own. That would make it possible for her to engineer it act accordingly. The more I watched it the more silly an idea it became, but I thought it would have been cooler that way.